Hi,
Before I get down to business, I'll mention that graphs like this one:
>> Caring
>> .
>> . Belief
>> . /
>> . /
>> ./
>>Lies . . . . . -. . . . . Truth
>> /.
>> / .
>> / .
>> Proof .
>> .
>> Arsehole
Have been bandied about on virus before, try the cool picture at
http://virus.lucifer.com/TgRGK.gif
A deeper modification of the above eventually came out, with three
axis's instead of two -- Belief, Evidence and Meaning, with various
names given to the eight quadrants thereby defined. Anybody seriously
interested should search the archives -- try starting
From: DJS <deron@pacifier.com>
To: 'virus@lucifer.com' <virus@lucifer.com>
Date: Wednesday, July 02, 1997 3:06 PM
Subject: virus: Truth and Meaning
http://virus.lucifer.com/virus.97/subject.html#start
and searching in and around that area. Anyway, down to business:
Tim Rhodes <proftim@speakeasy.org> writes:
<<
The "cement" you're talking about is what William James describes in
his book _The Varieties of Religious Experience_ as having the four
qualities of ineffability, passivity, noëtic quality, and
transcendence. ("Noëtic" is a little used word that comes from the
Greek for intellect or understanding. The same root gives us the word
"knowledge." "Noëtic" refers to a knowledge that is experienced
directly; an illumination accompanied by a feeling of certitude.) In
the book James speaks of a "noëtic sense of truth" and the authority
these states impart:
Tim: I am interested in discussing this topic, although we may face the same difficulties as Reed and Robin are having -- how does one talk about the un-talk-aboutable? Another problem is that without a little conflict, virus discussions die down quickly -- one of us may have to play the devil's advocate.
To further clarify my understanding of noëtic experiences, can we try
to rule on what types of experiences are noëtic and which are not? I
have a few examples, let us figure out where they belong:
(1) "Enlightenment" -- that feeling of sudden intuition, the ecstasy
of understanding.
(2) "Orgasm" (description omitted, although I'd like to see someone
try)
(3) "Here and Now" -- e.g. the feeling you get after a really good
work out, the awareness of yourself in-the-moment. Also to be had by
resting on a warm couch in the sunshine (a favorite activity of mine)
(4) Religious Revelation -- I personally have no experience with this
category, but I have read about it -- e.g. "Dancing with the Gods",
which I have referenced here several times; and certain Christian
conversion experiences I have had described to me.
While it's obvious (IMO) that (1) and (4) are noëtic, are either of
(2) or (3)? Does (4) count even if there is no *content*
<<
In trying to understand religion it seems to me too seldom are asked
the hard questions: How exactly does a /noëtic experience/ impact the
brain? What qualities does it exhibit and how do they come into play
in the process? What is it about these noëtic experiences that
prompts the brain to assign a sense of certitude and authority to them
which may be wholly (or seemingly) unrelated to their objective
truth-value? And how does that all take place?
>>
All good questions, Tim, but I'm not a neuro-scientist, and the only brain I've got to work with is my own. I think the second last question could be answered in a memetic framework, relating to self-fulfilling prophesies and the benefits of sounding sincere when trying to convince others... but, I'm having trouble believing that language and memetics have been around long enough to have made such a profound impact on gene's. A better guess would be that noëtic experiences have evolved from something that is already present in our ancestors -- possibly only the primates, but maybe mammals in general. Now if I could just think up a plausable reason for primates to need something like noëtic experiences, we'd be somewhere!
ERiC
