Re: virus: MEME UPDATE: To Censor Or Not?

Dave Pape (
Tue, 17 Dec 1996 20:17:47 GMT

>> Sorry? I... genuinely don't quite follow you here... am I right... you...
>> think there's a big oversight in QM... but you don't think it's to do with
>> the Godel problem of the universe being fundamentally unable to understand
>> itself? I mean, fair enough, I was just a bit unsure about what you were
>> getting at.

>1) If the universe is trying to understand itself, I'm not in a position
>to see it. What I see is a "tiny" piece of the universe trying to
>understand not only the universe, but utterly nonphysical abstractions as

You're part of it, is how I'd like to answer. You are part of the portion of
the universe which is self-knowing. I arise from interactions between
subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, cells, organic systems... I am a
portion of the universe. And I am (indirectly, via my senses) aware of (part
of) the universe. Therefore, the universe is partially aware of itself,
while I'm conscious, through me. And the rest of us. So, if WE try to model,
describe and explain the universe, then that's got to be a subset of the
occasions when the universe tries to understand itself.

>2) There's a big oversight when you have two high-power theories [explain
>much, extensively verified] that are immiscible [like oil and water].
>The problem is, *where* the oversight is, is unknown.

That's very very interesting. This is presumably thing like the EPR paradox
etc... here's one for XYZ... Einstein's mates and Bohm's posse, the two
gangs that have explained the most phenomena ever, each with townsful of
evidence, fighting it out, locked in debate. That'll be memes competing for
brainspace, then.

>> So... if you don't mind me cutting right in here... where do you think
>> consciousness comes from? (simple terminology, please!)
>I'm considering spiritual and mental to be different primitive traits.
>This is obviously a hack; you describe a metaworkaround above.
>With enough relations described, one could figure out a better description.

I'm kind of thinking... every level of memes operating on memes is a level
of consciousness.... so there isn't really a cut-off point where you say
"this brain now has consciousness, has Mind", or "No it hasn't"... each of
our consciousness-levels fluctuate fractally over time (ie there's little
variations in how conscious you are on a scale of seconds, and big
fluctuations on a scale of years...)

There is no such thing as anything.

Phonecalls: 01494 461648 Phights: 10 Riverswood Gardens
High Wycombe
HP11 1H