Re: virus: conscious/subconscious (form. level 0)

XYZ Customer Support (
Mon, 30 Dec 1996 13:58:30 -0700

> From: John P. Schneider <>

> > Science demands the existence of electrons,

> > Electrons were *discovered* to exist, they were not demaned to
> > exist.

> You are demanding their existence yourself when you claim that they
> were *discovered*. All we really have are a bunch of phenomena, and
> then a theory which requires the existence of electrons that is used
> to describe these phenomena.

I never demanded the existence of electrons. I am not claiming that
they were discovered either. I am simply stating a fact: They were
discovered. The explanation of just what kind of phenomena electrons
really were came later.

> I think the problem you're having is that memes are (largely if not
> entirely) nonphysical objects.

Memes are not objects at all, much like dreams are not objects.
They are observations.

> You've mentioned Freud in a way that
> suggests you support his ideas. But 'superego' is sort of like
> 'meme' in the sense that it is just useful to describe phenomena.

There we go with that useful thing again.

> Do you also reject Freud on the basis that nobody has proven that
> id, ego, and superego exist?

I reject Freud but not on that basis. Id, ego, and superego were
metaphors used to describe something that neither Freud nor any
scientist of his day had a label for, because no one had ever even
imagined such a thing as the subconscious as Freud discovered.

> Are they the only way to describe psychoanalytical observations?

Frued is outdated science, so not anymore.

> the memetics/genetics combination may do a better job, and may
> even be a bit more logical at face value than Freud's theory.

It may but it hasn't even begun to do that. And don't fool yourself
with memes being more logical or not...remember the scientific