RE: virus: Re: Anti-Virus Protection

Dave Pape (
Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:57:28 GMT

At 16:57 04/02/97 EST, David R wrote:

> As I was reading one of Dave Pape's e-mails last night, the idea of that I
>was trying to cram something into my belief system that didn't fit became
>hysterically funny.

I wouldn't expect people, as memetic systems, to be ABLE to "cram" memes
incompatible with their own into their existing memetic ecology (by which
term I refer to "personality", "belief system", etc).

I would expect a memetic ecology effectively under attack from memes from MY
memetic ecology to transmit some of its own memes back. These memes might be
contrary to specific memes which had been dispatched from my head (these
memes are referred to as "counterevidence to", or "arguments specifically
against", "the arguments which I posed to you"), or might not (more of that

>Since getting into objectivism, it seemed like I could
>debate anyone and show why their beliefs were screwed up. I could "tie them
in a
>knot", simply by pointing out facts and inconsistancies. I didn't need to get
>into "esoteric" things like axioms. In this case, however, Dave P could seem to
>show that I had memetic structures that I was not aware of and he would be the
>guy who was pointing out things about MY belief system-how it is based on
>memes.Then again, I thought, the objectivist axioms have to be right since they
>can't be refuted.

"Have to be right" according to the system of formal logic. ...If everyone
agrees that they can't be refuted, and if they all agree as to what an axiom
is. Which it seems that they don't.

I think that the process of argument can be explained thus:

Opponent S launches meme s at opponent T. This meme activates meme t in the
memetic ecology of T, and should t reach a sufficiently high activation
level, it will transmit to S. This process is now mirrored and repeated.

Now imagine how the argument stops:

1 T "is convinced by S's argument".
T's memetic ecology must disassemble somewhat, and then reassemble in such a
way as to incorporate S's memes. This will entail T effectively stopping
using some of the memes which, up till now, have been selected for in the
evolutionary environment of his mind- selected for because they provide T
with a payoff in terms of comfort or status or reproductive potential. I
think this is why it hurts to be losing an argument- because you stand to
stop being an expert in what you are, and face having to become a learner in
something which you are not (yet).

2 T "walks away from the argument".
This has the effect of stopping the flow of memes from S to T, reducing the
threat of disassembly of T's memetic ecology.

I believe that the system of Formal Logic is a system of memes which have
been around for a long time, although they've presumably changed throughout
that time, because they are very useful memes to have in your memetic
ecology under conditions of argument, and when assessing other memes in
general. For this reason, these pro-logic memes are selected for in the meme

But the system of logic is memes, and there are non-logical memes, and thus
I think that concepts to do with logic are a subset of the set of all memes.


>Basically, there's some punk
>running around the UK that I can't "conquer".

And here you step outside of the set of pro-logic memes. This meme, while
not specifically competing with the memes which I have transmitted to you,
may, when it impinges on the memetic ecologies of some list readers, give
them (if they dislike punks, or people from the UK) extra memetic ammo which
can be used against memes transmitted from my memetic ecology to theirs.

Most arguments, as I believe I claimed before, aren't settled according to
rigorous logic. Many just continue, with the same ideas cropping up again
and again, until one of the opponents walks away or yields- ie, with the
same memes being transmitted back and forth between opponents until either
of the argument endgames I mentioned before occurs. Others end in "slanging
matches", where memes which compete with the opponent's memetic ecology on a
personal or social, or in your example here, musico-cultural/economic or
racial, basis, are transmitted back and forth.

Dave Pape
The memetic equivalent of a G3 bullpup-design assault rifle blowing a full
clip at my opponent. (Alex Williams 1996)

Phonecalls: 01494 461648 Phights: 10 Riverswood Gardens
High Wycombe
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