RE: virus: Honesty vs. Parasitism

Richard Brodie (
Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:56:03 -0800

David, I truly appreciate your hanging in with us. The reason you feel
attacked is that you are on the verge of a Level-3 breakthrough and your
Level-2 mindset (ego) is turning its defense mechanisms on full bore. I
believe most of the participants here appreciate your honesty and
rationality and simply want to share the value of the memetics paradigm
with you.

David Rosdeitcher wrote:

> Most of the posts that attack me do not attack what I am
>communicating or
>trying to communicate. They are simply dishonest methods of creating
>and uncertainty. As I said before, they attack the memes that are
>contained in
>what I am saying, not what I am actually saying. The people who do this
>dishonest-they are deliberately trying to confuse and distort reality
>for others
>while gaining a cheap feeling of power. Examples of this can be shown
>by such
>people as Martz and Dave Pape.

One symptom of cult membership is lack of a sense of humor. As
Hofstadter pointed out in his incredible Pulitzer-prizewinning book
Goedel Escher Bach (available at the Amazon.Com Memetics Bookstore,, level-jumping is FUNNY!
You have correctly sensed that something unusual is going on in the
posts challenging your self-consistent belief system. Perhaps the basic
point that needs to be reiterated (I believe Vicki made it already) is
that there are an infinite number of self-consistent belief systems.
Just because yours cannot be refuted doesn't make it TRUE. In fact, I
would assert, though it can't be proved, that NONE of them are true.
Some are, however, more useful than others.

> In a recent post in which I said that there are 2 camps (2 methods
>thinking) going on in CoV and then used the meme at the end of the long
>"This is War!", Martz responds, with another meme, "I'm a conscientous
>objector". This is an example of attacking a meme, not what I am

This is a joke.

> Yesterday, when I made the point that some people in this group are
>by not taking their own position, just attacking parasitically the
>memes of
>others, Dave Pape responds that he's not a virus, but a host since he's
>a host
>for various memes. In this context, he is a dishonest virus. Examples
>attacking fragments or memes of ideas are so common throughout this
>list, that
>pointing them out would be like pointing out water in the Pacific

What people are trying to do, David, is show you that the Level-3 mind
HAS no fixed position -- just useful models that may be flipped among at

> Just as in society, dishonest criminals are dependent on leeching
>off honest
>working people, dishonest "memebers" depend on other people providing
>ideas and
>making assertions. Becoming dependent on attacking memes prevents
>people from
>thinking original thoughts since they must rely on the minds of others.

At some level no thought is original. At some higher level, every
combination, application, or expression in context of a thought is

Memes, they come and go,
Pollen floating flow'r to flow'r
Nectar for the mind.

> I expect the next response to be along the lines that my thoughts
>original. -David

Look! Decide whether you want to learn, want to spread your virus to us,
or want to play poker with us!

We're probably amenable to all three?
Richard Brodie +1.206.688.8600
CEO, Brodie Technology Group, Inc., Bellevue, WA, USA
Do you know what a "meme" is?