Re: virus: CoV Memetics: Mysticism of the 90's

David McFadzean (
Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:29:23 -0700

At 02:41 PM 11/02/97 EST, David Rosdeitcher wrote:
> Mysticism is a disease of consciousness that blocks the mind's ability to
>integrate reality. Memetics, as studied at CoV, is an organized form of
>mysticism that is typical of modern cults and religions. 4 symptoms of such
>organized mysticism that are exemplified by CoV are:
>1. Pseudo-scientific doctrine.
>2. Drug-like delusions
>3. Modern version of Plato's philosophy
>4. Inability to distinguish between essentials and non-essentials

How did you miss the fact that the CoV was created to oppose mysticism?

> Memetics, as studied in CoV, is not science. Science, unlike CoV
>assumes that 1)there is an external reality of which to study, 2)a
competency of
>the scientist(s) to study it, and 3)that which is studied has a nature to be
>understood. CoV memetics is built upon the assumption that memes-units of

CoV memetics agrees with all 3 assumptions.

>information that get copied and transmitted to other minds-control
>and that individuals are simply vehicles for a memetic evolutionary process.

Memetics states that it is useful to model the transmission of behaviors in
this way, analogous to the selfish gene theory. If you think the selfish gene
theory implies that organisms are "nothing but" vehicles for genes then you
missing the point.

>This implies that 1)any so called "external reality" is a construct of
>and not objectively real, 2) individuals, being mere vehicles for memetic
>evolution, are not competent to understand anything, and 3)that nothing has a
>specific identity. While memetics, the study of the spread of memes, can be
>scientific, in the case of CoV it is not.

Could you explain how you arrived at these conclusions? You totally lost me.

> Such so-called study, in which people themselves are part of the
>"experiment" in which memes are competing for "survival", leads to drug-like
>delusions, similar to other experiments in which the scientist himself is

You can't study people and minds without taking into account people and minds.
So what? I don't see how that leads to drug-like delusions.

>of the experiment, like in "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". Once you enter the Mr.
>Hyde state of believing you are just a construct of memes, all scientific
>objectivity breaks down because most people, because of a disease of
>already in their minds, have no way of determining whether they are in
>"experiment space" or "objective space". Mystical structures already
within the
>mind are explained below:

You are doing a good job of copying Rand's writing style, right down to
the melodramatic hyperbole. I can understand why she used it, given the
context of her experience. I don't understand why you do.

> Plato was a philosopher in ancient Greece during the 4th century BC and
>developed a system of false ideas which support the idea system of CoV

Obviously you haven't read the CoV's stance on Plato. I'll reproduce it for

On Plato...

(c.428-347 BC) Father of idealism and, ipso facto, archvillain. Plato
the objects of the real world as being merely shadows of eternal Forms or
Only these changeless, eternal Forms can be the object of true knowledge; the
perception of their shadows (the real world) is merely opinion. Wrong,
wrong, wrong.
Ideas exist, but only as patterns in matter and energy. The world of ideas is
supervenient on the real world, not vice versa. Plato's effect on western
civilization is nothing short of profound which makes him one of most
memetic engineers of all time.

>(This is clear when looking at Dave P.'s posts) This idea system is as

Of course I can't speak for Dave P.

>1. There is a higher reality than the one we perceive. CoV memetics version:
>there are more advanced memes than the ones you have/are now, so what you
see is
>not valid or believable.

If this is supposed to be an attack on Richard Brodie's concept of level-3
I don't think it is a fair characterization.

>2. You, the individual are not competent to know reality and you need a
>authority to guide you. CoV memetics version: You can't know anything through
>your current memetic structure, so follow the "leader" who will take you to a
>higher level (Level 3)

As above.

>3. You are not important and you should sacrifice yourself to a higher cause.
>Memetics version: Don't hang on to your current beliefs, submit to a "belief
>crisis" in which dominant memes will take over for your own good.

Where are you getting this from?

>4. A strong centralized State is more important than individuals since it
is a
>"higher order". Memetics version: A community's collective memes are more
>important than a lone individual's memes since they are more evolved.
>takes precedence over the individual.

Again, I disagree.

> People are suckered into the CoV structure, even if not completely
>indoctrinated with the above ideology, because of a common disorder of the
>to not make distinctions between essentials and non-essentials. This
disorder is
>exemplified by Tim Rhodes, who responded to my last big post, entitled
>"Objectivism vs. Astrology in Cyberspace".

I can't speak for Prof. Tim either.

> The main point of my article was that during the coming
>the world will become more decentralized and would require more and more
>to use critical independent thinking, as opposed to mindless following of
>authority. In such a scenario, I contended, objectivism, which is a
>geared toward critical independent thinking, would gain more popularity,
>say astrology, which has little to do with critical independent thinking. Tim

I agree. One of the main purposes of the CoV is to infect people with
critical thinking memes. I thought the influences of Objectivism were pretty
clear in the doctrine. (Apparently not)

>responded by stating that astrology has validity since he has seen how
>it is when birth charts describe people's personalities. Being a former
>astrologer myself, I can agree with Tim. But this had nothing to do with
my main

Personally I don't think astrology has any validity whatsoever.

>point which was the change from an authority following mode to a rational
>thinking mode that would accompany a change from centralization to
>decentralization throughout society. Such lack of clarity about essentials
>non-essential is how CoV gets and keeps its "memebers".

If the CoV has any "memebers" it is because they enjoy discussing memetics
and have a very high tolerance for abuse.

> Here is how CoV works off people's inability to know what's essential and
>what is not essential: Basically, someone makes an assertion (thesis).
>person takes that assertion and takes a meme within that assertion and
>that meme out of context and sends the original statement off on a
tangent. This
>confuses the person who is not "hip to what's going on" (ie. new people) and
>this confused person enters a "belief crisis" and then becomes susceptible to
>manipulation from "higher authorities". All because of an inability to
>essentials from non-essentials. This works well because language is not so
>a tool of communication, but a tool of thinking. This newly confused person,
>especially if new, is "fresh meat" for new meme usage and the CoV hoax

Are you taking the CoV meme out of context and distorting it beyond
in order to demonstrate your theory?

> I am not here to rescue anyone since that cannot be done, as most people
>here have already made investments in CoV. But there is valuable information
>here that I have acquired and will continue to acquire that has to do with
>manipulation through mysticism. We'll see who wins this war. -David

Well you've certainly beaten the stuffing out of that straw man. You may
at your convenience.

David McFadzean       
Memetic Engineer      
Church of Virus