Re: virus: Belief and Knowledge (was: The truth about faith)

Peter Charlot (
Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:28:53 -1000

Eric Boyd wrote:

>... and I think I missed a really big point. And that is this:
>spirituality is about the human feeling that we are *more* than the sum
>of our parts. That, in fact, as far as science may go in determining
>how our brains works, and why, and naming and defining all the little
>parts, even going so far as to be able to "make" a human, such a
>creation will not be "human"... it would still lack this is the essence
>of all the spiritual positions and religions. Whether such a position
>is valid or not is, of course, highly questionable...

>...Now, since meme's do seemingly *not* exist as physical manifestations,
>(that is, I can't point *anywhere* with my finger, or even use EKG's or
>other devices to detect memes) it follows that indeed these memes
>*could* be the source of the feeling that we are more than the sum of
>our parts. Not only do we have a body and a brain, but we have this
>"mind" filled with "memes"... and these memes bring "meaning" to our
>otherwise *pointless* lives.

Hi Eric,

I beieve that memes are very much a part of our brain and that they are most
about taking over the whole operation, being rather rude little beasties. I
don't think they are
liberating at all. They are limiting. Their function is to limit knowledge
so that the the organism (or themselves if you prefer) can function
successfully within potentially overwhelming sensory input.

Check out an article by Fortunato Blackerby, Ph.D, LPC called "The
Application of Chaos Theory
to Psychological Models" <>. I believe
Dr. Blackerby has superseded our current models of Freud, Jung, and
Skinner with something totally wonderful. As she states in her
introduction, "The innovative application of chaotic dynamics to
psychological behavior is a promising theoretical development because the
application asserts that human systems are open, nonlinear and
self-organizing. Chaotic dynamics use nonlinear mathematical relationships
among factors that influence human systems."

She seems to have developed an idea that Doyne Farmer, a founder of Chaos
theory, once considered, "On a philosophical level, it [chaos] struck me as
an operational way to define free will, in a way that allowed you to
reconcile free will with determinism. The system is deterministic, but you
can't say what it's going to do next. At the same time, I'd always felt that
the important problems out there in the world had to do with the creation of
organization, in life or intelligence. But how did you study that?"

One of the premises of Chaos theory is that simple operations require
complex foundations. Conversely, complex operations require simple
foundations. In this regard the operation of, let's say, the hand,
requires more complexity to produce than the mind. The mind, being the
most complex system we know, would require the simplest of rules to
produce. The simplest rules I can conceive of are systems of individually
competing algorithms that are produced from sensory input - memetic
algorithms in

It has been noted that as Chaos theory enters each established science, the
greatest resistance comes from those who have worked hard to unravel
complexity in a complex way. It is difficult to consider that our minds are
qualia fractals (mind snowflakes) - composed only of their own dynamics -
but so it is. It is the very simplicity of producing this condition that
suggests we may be closer to producing thinking machines than we previously
considered. It is true that we will never make a machine that will be a
scientist, but we can make lots of thinking machines and some of them will
want to be scientists. Such is the nature of Chaos.

What say you?



Peter Charlot <> Volcano Village, Hawaii