Re: virus:Logic

Sodom (
Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:56:32 -0400

Brett Lane Robertson wrote:
> They will acknowledge that their belief conflicts with
> logic and that they choose faith because they are powerless not to. In
> other words, they were brainwashed since childhood and admit it. Others,
> who can't bear the weight, I avoid discussion with. (Sodom)
> Sodom,
> Would you entertain the idea that "faith" is more like inductive reasoning
> than "powerles[sness]" or "brainwashing". It seems that faith is like a
> "feeling" one gets when one reads a lot of general statements about
> something...they don't really add up to a conclusion but they add up to a
> certainty of sorts. Or, would you accept that faith is a "social
> metaphysic" of sorts--like a mob mentality; perhaps faith is the
> *conclusion* that a group of people reach but this conclusion is not
> available for one person to state in so many words?
> As to faith being inductive: It seems that when you ask for details,
> christians can't supply them...but they quote lots of obscure texts (as if
> this explained something...and maybe it does, TO THEM; so, maybe with
> enough of the general principals you get an impression of something bigger
> that [maybe] is too complicated to put into logical statements).
> As to being a social phenomenon: If you ask them to explain something to
> you they will say "Go ask my preacher" or "Come to Church" maybe this
> "thing" that they are talking about is in a different symbolic language, of
> sorts, which takes many people with various symbolic understandings to
> interpret--AS A GROUP; but just maybe this type of logic takes
> mathematicians, and musicians, and mechanics, and scholars, etc. all working
> togeather to interpret.
> Brett
> P.S.
> You seem too pre-judged toward science and against religion to ACTUALLY be a
> level 5...I would think that you are dichotomous (so would be a multiple of
> level 2's, minus the original conception of self-as-god...minus the ONE). I
> also see you as having substance without form--that is you mirror a level
> one without having the quality of oneness. You are most likely a level 3
> formed of pairs...and therefore a level 6--though perhaps minus the first
> pair due to their resemblence to a unified understanding; and so, you would
> resemble (or mimic) a level 5 while attempting to destroy their confidence
> in themself...their level one quality.
> BR
> Returning,
> rBERTS%n
> Rabble Sonnet Retort
> Levity is the soul of wit.
> Melville D. Landon. (Eli Perkins)

Faith: I have never felt faith, in anything I am aware of. The feeling
one gets from absorbing a lot of material for me is similar to insight,
but although I like insight, I keep try to keep it's power over me at
bay. I have read quite a bit about mob mentality, and I have stood
against a mob before - this was very frightening. It felt like being
surrounded by sharks in the ocean I think, but I would do it again for
something I believe in. Perhaps "faith" is a conclusion that many people
reach, as i said, I have never felt it and am not inclined to try as i
fear it to be much like crack cocaine, addictive, dangerous, and without
redeaming value.

I doubt that anything is too complex to put into logical terms. This
does not mean that something may be too complex for ME to put into
logical terms. And every person educated at all knows that circular
refrences are invalid as evidence for or against things. Using the bible
to quote itself is not a convincing means of inspiring belief.

And, as I wrote earlier, I get very wrapped up in my readings. When I
went through the bible for the first time, I was utterly lost in the
beauty of it and, setting aside my rational mind, it was easy to
consider that science was wrong. Then i looked at my functioning
computer, which if genesis was correct, could not function - and - I
remembered that many of these stories come from places other than the
bible and were stolen for the bible. In fact, many qutes attributed to
Christ, were actually from Greek philosophers hundreds of years before
Christ was born. Since I know the stories are plagurized, the validity
of the book as Divinely inspired fades away.

AS for the levels of which you speak, I need to learn the symbolism
associated with this set of levels; However, many concepts that I have
spent a great deal of exploring, I no longer feel the need to explore.
eg.. 2+2=4 given common arithmetic. I do not challenge this concept any
longer because it has been fruitless, and no-one has yet to bring me
evidence to the contrary. Given a plausable option, I will explore it to
it's end if permitted.

Also, I am not against religion, I am against many religions. There are
religions that are without proofs and based upon what the mind is
capable of. There are many forms of paganism I can bear, although I do
not think they are particularly correct. The religion of Virus, is
exactly what I want from a religion and since it is evolving and
rational and a host of other things, it is something I could possible
experience "faith" in.

As for self as God, Freddy mercury says "We are all gods, children"