Re: virus: The other

William Roh (
Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:26:42 -0800

Brett Lane Robertson wrote:

> List,
> Sodom says that no one can map the consciousness...that the best we have
> done with mind is to locate certain physical map neurons
> firing.

No, i did not say that, i said that so far no-one has.

> I say that Sodom has chosen to view certain types of evidence and
> ignore others. He has located himself in the physical and is waiting for
> "proof" from a certain type of scientist using certain types of
> electro-mechanical devices.

If you consider speculation as evidence, then yes, i ignore that
evidence. the rest is correct.

> If this is the only proof he accepts, then he
> might have to wait quite a bit longer before he admits that mind is a
> process (whether holographic or what) which has certain governing mechanisms
> that can be mapped and studied the way that mind-scientists map and study
> these phenomenon...using the tools that they have found useful to map these
> psycho-physical entities (which are as "real" as any neutron)

i don't know that there is such a thing as a neutron, i suspect by
replicable experimentation and mathematics, that the description closey
matches observation. i do not know that psycho-physical entities is
nearly as accurate a description of action as a "neutron" is. i do hope
that it will be, but i think we are somewhere in the 12th century when
it comes to our understanding of consciousness function. (not to be
confused with brain function)

> Still, would we use a microscope to study the solar system? No, and in the same way we
> will not use the tools of the scientist to study mental processes...we will
> use the "tools" of the philosopher or the "mentalist" (in what ever
> profession he finds himself).

I strongly disagree here, i do think that this will eventually become an
accurate physical science.

> Sodom says that to trust in certain tools as
> opposed to others is a form of "self-deception". If Sodom is in the habit
> of deceiving himself so that he cannot examine evidence which he has a
> tendency to read incorrectly; then--of course--he should stick to what he
> knows...but he should be careful not to make generalizations about other
> types of tools about which he has no knowledge.

My personal rules for tools are that they are reproducaple and as
objective as possible. If you want to use tools that bring about
irreproducable and/or subject observation, then just return to Plato's
wall and describe what shadows you see, then bow down to them.

> I am continually amazed by scientists (psychologists) which draw graphs and
> use words in such a way that I can use these tools to explore my connnection
> to the mental.

i have to visit a psychologist every other week, for my mates sake, even
though i like and feel that this Dr. knows what he is doing (to maybe 40
or 50% accuracy, it is still bear skins and stone knives. Without a
microscope, it would be impossible to be sure germs and cells existed.
You could speculate all day, and might even get close, but history has
shown us that physical tools have a very good accuracy record and mental
tools have a very poor accuracy record.

> Like using telescopes to view the heavens, I must remember
> that the tool is not the terrain...and also that what I am "viewing" might
> actually reside somewhere other than where I am "seeing" it. Still, I can
> independently varify what someone else has observed..and after examining the
> tools I used to explore the information and allowing for certain subjective
> phenomenon ...I can make judgements as to the validity of the observations.


> In the mean time, I suggest that Sodom use what ever tools he is comfortable
> with in new ways to see what others are already seeing...the theories of
> physics are good tools in this respect.

i don't think we have developed a tool capable of doing what yoiu are
suggesting, but that we will eventualluy do so. Using physics to
describe abstract mental function is like using a screwdriver as a tire
pump, IT AINT GONNA WORK. i am aware of no tools yetr developed that can
do what you are suggesting, so instead of describing upon guesswork, I
would , in the mean time, endevour to build a better tool.