Re: virus: Saints
Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:47:35 -0500 (EST)

In a message dated 97-12-03 00:08:21 EST, you write:

<< > I disagree entirely!!!! On our web page it says "a memetically
> engineered atheistic religion". Also, unless we want to rehash old
> arguments, Theists have faith in a god, Faith in a "god" is "without
> evidence" - a person who has Faith without evidence for, and a great
> deal against, is someone to be pitied, not cannonized!!! I don't care
> how smart, nice, wise etc... If you have "Faith" in the religious sense,
> your out as a Saint! I'm not saying you cannot participate, but if our
> virtues are to remain as they are, and reason is to be one of them, than
> thiests have no place on the list of Saints.
> Marie, I don't mean to sound mean spirited, perhaps you can give me an
> example of a theist who is deserving of consideration.
> Sodom

Sure... I will compile a list and the reasons for them to be
considered. However, I remind you that atheists can be as dogmatic and
close minded as the most ardent fundamentalist of any religious

I also do not want to start up the debate again, but no one can prove
that there is not some kind of god - greater power than us - whatever
you want to call it.

Your experience leads you to reject this idea. Fine. Mine is entirely
different. What proof do you have that there is no *greater power than
us*? Just how big do you think we are? Our entire universe may just be
a lab experiment in some kind of college somewhere... Give it a break.

Look, when it was proved that the earth was not the center of the
universe, minds had to change. The atheist can become stuck in their
blindness just as bad as a theist. If you can not see how that may be
so, then I pity you... Since you are throwing the pity around...

Gosh... I think this is the first time I have really gotten angry even
though I have been close a few times.


Well, I think that we ditched "faith" as a sin and replaced it with
Dogmatism. Since we have done that, it opens the door for lots of
non-atheists. However I don't think the door is open for *all* non-atheists.
"Agnostic" is a much broader category. Maybe we should revise it to "a
memetically engineered agnostic religion." If we aren't willing to do that,
then we should probably put "faith" back in as a sin. I will put in a few
posts of material that I have used on AOL in the atheism section on faith and
In the strictest sense I can imagine Marie being correct. I could
imagine an agnostic/theist being a candidate that wouldn't violate the sins.
I personally can't think of an actual individual to fit the bill. Most
theists claim to "know" God in some way. This would of course make them
something other than an agnostic. Perhaps there are still a few Deists out
there, or maybe a Pantheist. Of course both of these God concepts are
difficult to resolve with Christian doctrine. Most of the attempts to do so
seem desperate IMHO. Reminds me of Fox Moulder's "I want to believe" poster.
Maybe if the Dali Llama ditched the Buddhist reincarnation doctrine (he's
the fourteenth you know) he might be on his way to true Virian philosophy.
(I would nominate him on general cuteness principles).