> To Sodom,
> I think you mistook my post as implying you are actually a believer
> in Christ; I too was being sarcastic. I was just trying to point out the
> irony of someone who is an atheist, you, making a statement that could be
> taken in the context of coming from a Christian (were they to tell the
> 'truth' about their beliefs). So that's where my "So you're a Christian
> eh?" remark came from, just to demonstrate something. I'm ernestly sorry
> if I offended you.
Thanks for the concern about offending me, I suppose I should also state that I
get excited in discussion, not offended.
> This is unlike arguing theology in a room full of preachers; the
> list consists of people with similar view points (or so it seems). In here
> it feels safer voicing one's anti-religious sentiments.
>
> <<<Thus far, i have seen no evidence of a god or godlike creature, at
> least as described in any religion.>>>
> But what do you tell the person, like that cult leader in Texas,
> who like numerous other pious persons believe they have direct and
> indisputable evidence on the contrary, in favor of a god? I've never
> talked to a 'God' before, but the problem is telling someone else that they
> haven't either.
I agree with this problem, I actually have spoken to God, twice. Once was on a
really heavy mushroom dose, the other was in meditation without drugs. The
first lasted for about 6 hours and was nothing but a battle - I challenged its
reality and it challenged my moral fiber until I eventaully "won". Being a
non-believer, it was not an option to give up, had i already been a believer, i
am sure i would have been convinced beyond doubt and done whatever my
subconscious god told me to do. In meditiation, it was less "real" and more
"mental" more like the feeling of a presence. Again I challenged and the voices
merged with mine which i took as the disillusion of seperation.
>
>
> <<God is simply an animalistic fear response to the unknown. The more you
> believe, the more animalistic and closer to barbarianism you are. >>>
> I don't mean to take your words out of context, because I agree
> that part of that belief is a "response to the unknown", but do you think
> that animals believe in God? I know that's not what you said at all, but
> "animalistic" can be interpreted as 'closer to the way animals (besides us)
> are? See, I would give animals other than humans more credit, by saying
> they are much farther advanced than us in that they don't demonstrate any
> sort of pagan ritualistic behavior or some submission to a higher being;
> they merely exist, and act as dicated by Nature.
I would agree here, but I think the feeling is similar to what a Dog feels
towards its master. Early humanoids did demonstrate ceramonial burial which is
indicative of a religion. The Neanderthals especially.In my opinion, and I am
basing it on my understaing of the origin of religion, is that as soon as an
animal reaches a certain point where it can try to understand what is
happening, it creats gods to explain what it does not understand. Without
communication the concept may exist, but cant be passed on. With communication,
gods sprout up to explain everything. The early religions all woprship multiple
gods. The rain god, sea god, music god etc... as more and more becomes
understandable, then the gods go away one by one, or are replaced with more
abstract gods. Eventually you reach a point that there is one god, who can do
anything, but cant be seen, felt or heard and cannot be verified.
>
>
> <<<As someone bereft of the emotions of "fear" or "belief", I see the
> concept of a god as no big mystery at all, just a handicap to those who are
> overrun with fear or belief.>>>
> Just because I always try to see how the opposite of everything can
> be true when I read something signifcant, I see this as sort of a paradox.
> A Christian or someone else holding strong religious doctrines would tell
> us that WE are handicapped in not believing, because we due to our lack of
> faith, we lack redemption, and ultimately are crippled when we are barred
> access to heaven. They would also say that our handicap is not being able
> to percieve God as they do, and we have spiritual blindness, and need to
> open our eyes and mind to the Lord, yadda yadda yadda.....(which is ironic
> because we would say something very similar to them about lacking
> perception). I'm not saying you are wrong about your judgement of what
> religious belief is, only that the tables could be turned just as easily on
> ourselves.
>
I agree that they feel the tables could be turned. I dont think so though -
having turned dozens from religion. It takes audacity and persistence, but can
be done. At the very least, you can convince them to question their belief
based on the evil of the actions taken by religion. Its hard to fuind a
bloodier story than the bible, or a more gruesom history than what the
Christians have perpertrated on humanity. There are so many paradox (how do you
use the plural of paradox?) that it is easy to get them questioning the root of
their beliefs. Most dont even know that the storys of Adam and Eve or Noah's
Ark is taken almost word for word from the Sumerians.
> <<< Dont worry, as you get to know, you will learn to hate me.>>>
> On this statement however, you couldn't be more wrong. I think the
> opposite will happen. The more familiar I become with your thoughts, the
> more I understand you. In my experience, most hatred and violence is the
> result of the lack of understanding between people.
Im sure, i was being purely sarcastic. As far as i know, i only have 1 enemy
here, and she lefgt a long time ago. From reading your post, it is apparent
that we are not so far apart, you and I.
> The reason I joined this list is to get perspective; either from
> those with a similar view point that reinforces my own, or from those that
> can show me a different way of looking at things. Already, some of the
> things you've posted have directly paralleled some of the things I've
> thought, and I agree with your opinion on matters more often than not. I
> also don't believe in the idea of absolute truth, however I do not
> subscribe to the 'rational thought process' and think all personal thought
> is irrational.
I think it is too, i think the concept of "rational" is something like the
concept of "truth". I do however think that is it possbile and best to try
whatever gets the best and most consistent results, and so far logic and the
attempt at rationality is the most successful.
> My difference of opinion does not mean that I don't think
> you are intelligent person and I respect your beliefs. Anything you have
> to say (and all others on this list) enriches my understanding of how
> everything is.
> The way I currently look at things (like the internet) prevents me
> from being capable of hatred of someone I don't know. Your words are not
> necessarily you, and I make the separation. Maybe you are just joking
> again, but even more impossible is for me to "learn to hate". I have a
> choice in what I am taught, which is whatever my mind accepts is the most
> true in each case. I've disregarded many bogus doctrines in this way, and
> I will always choose open-minded dialogue over ignorant hatred. So this
> means, um, I like you!
>
> ~kjs
You and I are gonna get along fine, unfortunately, although i dont have fear,
and dont want to learn it, i do have hate, at least the emotion of VERY STRONG
dislike. I call that hate. In this refrence it could be said that I hate the
far right wing. It could be said that I hate oppression of any kind.i like you
too
Sodom
i have seen the light and it was at the beginning of the tunnel, not the end