Re: virus: bad boys etc

=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andreas_Engstr=F6m?= (andreas@innovative.se)
Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:28:48 +0200


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sodom <Sodom@ma.ultranet.com> wrote,=20
apparently without thinking too much about it:
> Andreas Engstr=F6m wrote:=20
> >
> > Tracy Yucikas <tyucikas@cts.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > oh gosh, never thought I'd play the devil's disciple and
> > > defend a biblical
> > > point
> > > of view, but here goes ....
> > >
> > > "In the beginning the world was without form and void ...."
> > > is how Genesis 1,1 starts out.
> > >
> > > Amazingly close to the default conditions which one could imagine
> > > existing prior to the "Big Bang". (without form and void)
> > >
>=20
> Umm - no. Although it is popular to think so. you cannot use the word
> "world" as it is cortridictory to "without form and void". The =
concept
> for "world" could not have existed at that state. Read=20
> further down and
> I will show some flaws with the other few verses mentioned.

Here you are responding to the correct speaker. And, of course,=20
you're right.
=20
> > > Although I fer sure take issue with a lot of stuff that
> > > comes later,
> > > I can find no fault with how the first book of the bible starts.
> > Just
> > > need to speak out for truth (as I see it at least).
> > >
> > > ...Tracy Yucikas (speaking for non-verbal memes)
> >
> > Truth as you see it seems to be a bit incorrect.
> >
> > If one is going to correct someone, one should make darn sure
> > one's correction actually is correct..
> >
> > The following are the first three verses of Genesis,
> > chapter 1 (King James Version):
> >
> > 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
>=20
> If the Earth was created first, at the same time as the heavens (It =
is
> irrelevant if heaven means "space" or "place of immortal=20
> delight") then
> the Earth is the oldest entity in the Universe (aside from God) - the
> problem here is that since we know that the rest of the Universe is =
at
> least 12 Billion years old - probably closer to 18 billion - the =
Earth
> would have been destroyed long ago when the orbit of the moon=20
> decayed to
> the point that collision was imminent billions of years ago.=20
> (unless the
> moon didnt exist). Also, there is not physical evidence on this =
planet
> (except for meteorites) that points to the Earth being any older than
> 3.5 billion yrs old.

I know.
=20
> > 2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
> > was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the waters.
>=20
> Without the sun, there can be no water, it would be frozen to=20
> just above
> absolute zero - it should say "moved apun the face of the ice".

Guess what? I know.

> > 3. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
> >
>=20
> I assume that at this stage the sun was created?=20
> Unfortunately, there is
> another paradox here. Our sun is young. only 5 Billion years=20
> old. If it
> was created before the stars (the stars of course, all 100 gillion of
> them were later created for us to have astrology and to navigate =
boats
> by) which we see most them billions of years before our sun=20
> was started
> by God.

Yes, _I know_.

> > So, Genesis 1.1 doesn't start out as you claim, but exactly
> > like Sodom quoted it. In the _next_ verse the phrase "without
> > form, and void" occurs. In the same verse "the spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the water". Not a very accurate description of
> > pre-"Big Bang" conditions, if you ask me.
> >
> > Not that I agree with Sodom either.. I'm sure that some verses in
> > Genesis regarding reality that doesn't conflict with science.
> > For instance, how about Genesis 1:20?
> >
> > 20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the
> > moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly
> > above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
> >
>=20
> Now that is cheating, but perhaps you didnt read my post a while back
> that effectivly there is no magic in writing down things that can be
> easily verified by everyone anywhere. These things actually exist and
> are verifiable - there is no magic necessary for a novel to=20
> mention New
> York City. Mentioning it's existence does not mean creating it's
> existence. But I know you meant well.

No, I didn't. I meant to make fun of the concept of trying to=20
find scientific truth in Genesis. Which should be very obvious.

And what you were asking for was _one statement about reality in =
Genesis=20
that didn't conflict with science_. I provided you with one.

Turn up your sensitivity to irony, please.
=20
> > Aside from that "God" is supposed to have said this, certainly
> > there are living creatures in the waters and birds flying above
> > us? See? Genesis is a source of infinite wisdom.. :-)

I thought that calling the blatantly obvious "infinite wisdom"=20
should be a sufficient indicator of irony. Just to be safe,=20
I added a smiley. Apparently even that is not enough. What am=20
I supposed to do? Use <IRONY></IRONY> tags? Perhaps something=20
for the standardization people that are working on the next
HTML standard to think about..=20

> > -Andreas Engstrom
> > (Great Randomness)
>=20
> in my humble opinion, the Bible is make believe - hand crafted to
> devour the minds of the fearful (I put that there for Tim)
>=20
> Sodom
> Bill Roh

In my not so humble opinion, I completely agree with you.
What amazes me is that you couldn't detect that.

I still think that Genesis is a source of <IRONY>infinite=20
wisdom</IRONY>.

-Andreas Engstrom
(Great Randomness)

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Re: virus: bad boys etc

sodom <Sodom@ma.ultranet.com> wrote,
apparently without thinking too much about = it:
> Andreas Engstr=F6m wrote:
> >
> > Tracy Yucikas <tyucikas@cts.com> = wrote:
> > >
> > > oh gosh, never thought I'd play the = devil's disciple and
> > > defend a biblical
> > > point
> > > of view, but here goes ....
> > >
> > > "In the beginning the world was = without form and void ...."
> > >       = is how Genesis 1,1 starts out.
> > >
> > > Amazingly close to the default = conditions which one could imagine
> > > existing prior to the "Big = Bang".  (without form and void)
> > >
>
> Umm - no. Although it is popular to think so. = you cannot use the word
> "world" as it is cortridictory to = "without form and void". The concept
> for "world" could not have existed at = that state. Read
> further down and
> I will show some flaws with the other few = verses mentioned.

Here you are responding to the correct speaker. And, = of course,
you're right.
 
> > >    Although I fer sure = take issue with a lot of stuff that
> > > comes later,
> > > I can find no fault with how the = first book of the bible starts.
> > Just
> > > need to speak out for truth (as I see = it at least).
> > >
> > > ...Tracy Yucikas (speaking for = non-verbal memes)
> >
> > Truth as you see it seems to be a bit = incorrect.
> >
> > If one is going to correct someone, one = should make darn sure
> > one's correction actually is = correct..
> >
> > The following are the first three verses = of Genesis,
> > chapter 1 (King James Version):
> >
> > 1. In the beginning God created the heaven = and the earth.
>
> If the Earth was created first, at the same = time as the heavens (It is
> irrelevant if heaven means "space" or = "place of immortal
> delight") then
> the Earth is the oldest entity in the Universe = (aside from God) - the
> problem here is that since we know that the = rest of the Universe is at
> least 12 Billion years old - probably closer to = 18 billion - the Earth
> would have been destroyed long ago when the = orbit of the moon
> decayed to
> the point that collision was imminent billions = of years ago.
> (unless the
> moon didnt exist). Also, there is not physical = evidence on this planet
> (except for meteorites) that points to the = Earth being any older than
> 3.5 billion yrs old.

I know.
 
> > 2. And the earth was without form, and = void; and darkness
> >    was upon the face of the = deep. And the Spirit of God moved
> >    upon the face of the = waters.
>
> Without the sun, there can be no water, it = would be frozen to
> just above
> absolute zero - it should say "moved apun = the face of the ice".

Guess what? I know.

> > 3. And God said, Let there be light: and = there was light.
> >
>
> I assume that at this stage the sun was = created?
> Unfortunately, there is
> another paradox here. Our sun is young. only 5 = Billion years
> old. If it
> was created before the stars (the stars of = course, all 100 gillion of
> them were later created for us to have = astrology and to navigate boats
> by) which we see most them billions of years = before our sun
> was started
> by God.

Yes, _I know_.

> > So, Genesis 1.1 doesn't start out as you = claim, but exactly
> > like Sodom quoted it. In the _next_ verse = the phrase "without
> > form, and void" occurs. In the same = verse "the spirit of God moved
> > upon the face of the water". Not a = very accurate description of
> > pre-"Big Bang" conditions, if = you ask me.
> >
> > Not that I agree with Sodom either.. I'm = sure that some verses in
> > Genesis regarding reality that doesn't = conflict with science.
> > For instance, how about Genesis = 1:20?
> >
> > 20. And God said, Let the waters bring = forth abundantly the
> >     moving creature = that hath life, and fowl that may fly
> >     above the earth in = the open firmament of heaven.
> >
>
> Now that is cheating, but perhaps you didnt = read my post a while back
> that effectivly there is no magic in writing = down things that can be
> easily verified by everyone anywhere. These = things actually exist and
> are verifiable - there is no magic necessary = for a novel to
> mention New
> York City. Mentioning it's existence does not = mean creating it's
> existence. But I know you meant well.

No, I didn't. I meant to make fun of the concept of = trying to
find scientific truth in Genesis. Which should be ver= y obvious.

And what you were asking for was _one statement about = reality in Genesis
that didn't conflict with science_. I provided you = with one.

Turn up your sensitivity to irony, please.
 
> > Aside from that "God" is = supposed to have said this, certainly
> > there are living creatures in the waters = and birds flying above
> > us? See? Genesis is a source of infinite = wisdom.. :-)

I thought that calling the blatantly obvious = "infinite wisdom"
should be a sufficient indicator of irony. Just to = be safe,
I added a smiley. Apparently even that is not = enough. What am
I supposed to do? Use <IRONY></IRONY> = tags? Perhaps something
for the standardization people that are working on = the next
HTML standard to think about..

> > -Andreas Engstrom
> > (Great Randomness)
>
>   in my humble opinion, the Bible is = make believe - hand crafted to
> devour the minds of the fearful (I put that = there for Tim)
>
> Sodom
> Bill Roh

In my not so humble opinion, I completely agree with = you.
What amazes me is that you couldn't detect = that.

I still think that Genesis is a source of = <IRONY>infinite
wisdom</IRONY>.

-Andreas Engstrom
(Great Randomness)

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