Robin Faichney wrote:
> No, the objective world is the world of objects as
> perceived by we subjects. To assume that "objective
> world" = "the universe" is to beg the question, to
> assume the consequent. Depending, of course, on
> what you mean by "universe" -- I've been taking it to
> mean "all that is", in which case it certainly does
> not equate to "the objective world", because that, by
> definition, excludes subjects.
>
My definition is very different. Other than being within the objective
world, we have nothing to do with it - we are incapable on even experiencing
it unfiltered. The objective world as perceived by we subjects is the
subjective world.
The objective world = Universe and contains all its subjects and their
little worlds.
> >And this- "that for which the objective world exists" is indeed a
> >statement of the supernatural- that which is 'other' to the universe.
>
I agree with Wade here- to suggest that the objective world (read Universe)
exists for the purpose of its parts sounds pretty supernatural to me.
> Nope, only other to the objective world. (And not
> even that, given the Klein Bottle analogy. BTW, if
> you do a web search on "Klein Bottle", you get some
> fascinating stuff!)
>
> >And as far as I know, clothes have to be made of materials.
>
> So you have to be a materialist to use materials?
> Try telling that to the cathedral builders!
Churchbuilders confusion is not an issue, they are wrong. And to accuse
Churches of not being materialists is wrong too - we are well aware of how
many churches, the big one in particular, have a real affection with money,
gold, gems etc...
It just seems like many people want badly for some part of them to be so
special as to exist outside of the universe. Just because thinking feels
cool, and it feels like our "souls" float in some 5th dimension - there is
simply no reason to think so other than it is a pretty idea that people
like. For some people it is difficult to not be special, or unique or
important on a "universe size" scale. To me it comes down to dealing with
information. And so far, the only lasting information that has no dependency
on the material world, is the MEME concept our church is built around.
>
Bill Roh
Sodom