RE: virus: CoV Memetics: Mysticism of the 90's

Richard Brodie (
Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:01:07 -0800

I admire your clarity and well-trained reasoning. I'm glad you have
remained because you still may learn something from us.

David R. wrote:

> Mysticism is a disease of consciousness that blocks the mind's
>ability to
>integrate reality.

The mind is not designed to integrate reality. The mind is designed to
propagate DNA patterns, known as genes. Mysticism is characterized by
the programming of one's mind with unsupported beliefs. Often this
"disease" does not interfere with propagating DNA nearly as much as
programming the mind with rationality does.

> Memetics, as studied at CoV, is an organized form of
>mysticism that is typical of modern cults and religions. 4 symptoms of
>organized mysticism that are exemplified by CoV are:
>1. Pseudo-scientific doctrine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Neo-Tech have about a million times
more "pseudo-scientific doctrine" than CoV? CoV's doctrine, as I
understand it, is a few tentative memes on Dave McF's Cov web page. But
science, academia, and all pursuits and professions have such doctrine,
don't they? If by "pseudo-scientific" you mean an appeal to "scientific
authority," we tend to frown on that here.

>2. Drug-like delusions

I don't even know what you think you mean by this one.

>3. Modern version of Plato's philosophy

I don't recall anyone mentioning Plato here until recently. But we're
certainly not idealists in that sense, if that's what you mean. Memetics
is merely a useful model.

>4. Inability to distinguish between essentials and non-essentials

On the contrary, the Level-3 mind is wholly concerned with the
essential. Or perhaps I mistake your meaning. Are you talking Cartesian

> Memetics, as studied in CoV, is not science.

We don't "study" much here. We're playing with applied memetics to
create something with the VALUE of a religion, but the USEFULNESS of

> Science, unlike CoV memetics,
>assumes that 1)there is an external reality of which to study, 2)a
>competency of
>the scientist(s) to study it, and 3)that which is studied has a nature
>to be

I doubt you'll find anyone here who disagrees with any of this for
either science or CoV.

> CoV memetics is built upon the assumption that memes-units of
>information that get copied and transmitted to other minds-control
>and that individuals are simply vehicles for a memetic evolutionary

You don't seem to get the idea of a model. For example, A human being
can be thought of as a biological organism. That is not untrue. Or, a
human being can be thought of as a mass of chemical processes. That is
also not untrue. Or, a human being can be thought of as a physical
system of interacting atoms. That is also not untrue. Or, a human being
can be thought of as a survival machine for the replication of DNA
patterns. This view continues to give us huge advances in medicine and
will soon eliminate aging and many forms of death. Memetics looks at a
human being as a vehicle for the propagation of cultural organisms --
sometimes called viruses of the mind -- through the learning and
transmitting of bits of mental programming, called memes. Some of us
think that this model will become increasingly important in shaping
human destiny. We could be wrong.

>This implies that 1)any so called "external reality" is a construct of
>and not objectively real,

It doesn't imply that to me! I wouldn't even assert that. However, as I
wrote in VIRUS OF THE MIND, anything you can SAY about external reality
is a construct of language and not precisely accurate.

> 2) individuals, being mere vehicles for memetic
>evolution, are not competent to understand anything,

This one comes from out of left field. Who do you think can understand
things if not individuals? I missed your point here, I'm afraid.

> and 3)that nothing has a
>specific identity.

So now you're arguing FOR Platonic ideals?

> While memetics, the study of the spread of memes, can be
>scientific, in the case of CoV it is not.

First thing you've said today that I agree with!

[snip paranoid response to Tad's joking. Isn't lack of humor a symptom
of infection by a cult virus of the mind?]

[re Plato]
>1. There is a higher reality than the one we perceive. CoV memetics
>there are more advanced memes than the ones you have/are now, so what
>you see is
>not valid or believable.

No, even when you have the more advanced level of consciousness (not a
meme), what you see is STILL not valid or believable.

>2. You, the individual are not competent to know reality and you need a
>authority to guide you. CoV memetics version: You can't know anything
>your current memetic structure, so follow the "leader" who will take
>you to a
>higher level (Level 3)

No one on this list has referred to himself or anyone as a "higher
authority." Some people are hear to learn. Some people are here to

>3. You are not important and you should sacrifice yourself to a higher
>Memetics version: Don't hang on to your current beliefs, submit to a
>crisis" in which dominant memes will take over for your own good.

You are compounding your misunderstanding. In the first place, I said
that Level 3 is an advanced mode of consciousness, not a "dominant
meme." Second, I simply described what does happen, not what I was
recommending. I recommend people read my book Getting Past OK, not wait
for a crisis.

>4. A strong centralized State is more important than individuals since
>it is a
>"higher order". Memetics version: A community's collective memes are
>important than a lone individual's memes since they are more evolved.
>takes precedence over the individual.

Waco. No one has said anything like this.

[snip paranoid delusion about CoV suckering people into its hoax]

Meme talk tends to be a mirror for people to see their own issues. Try
on that what you say about CoV might me more true of some organization
that you're involved with in your life. =)



Richard Brodie +1.206.688.8600
CEO, Brodie Technology Group, Inc., Bellevue, WA, USA
Do you know what a "meme" is?