Re: virus: Autocatalytic Idea System Examples

Eric Boyd (
Fri, 30 May 1997 11:28:18 -0500

Chitren Nursinghdass wrote:
> >Level 1: monkey. Acting on instincts. No real thought
> >Level 2: normal human. Thought, reason, faith. Consistent set of
> >mutually supporting meme's.
> >Level 3: "meme space flexing on the fly" Switching between different
> >contradictory meme spaces. Knowing both sides of the issue. Seeing
> >past the duality. Embracing the contradiction. Using's meme and not
> >being infected by them. "Higher Intellectual Center"
> Hmmm, two meme sets can appear contradictory if you don't have the hypotheses
> that can link them into a coherent meta-system.
> Is the knowledge of such a meme a > level 3 meme ?

I've been trying to say that such a knowledge would be level 4... but I
haven't read the book so it's possible that it could still be level 3.

> >> So where does it lead to ? Which conclusions do you reach about the
> >> universe, mathematics, free will, etc.. if you go on expanding you own
> >> meme-set.
> >
> >Hold your horses, eh? One topic at a time!
> It's all linked. Consciousness linked to brain linked to other parts
> of the body. Only after much time is developed a metaphor-cum-proto-science-
> cum-science which enables us to say "how about putting a meme space in
> another medium, after all this body dies soon". And so some start thinking
> about it. The thing is, if you don't have you body now, you can't think
> about it,
> because we haven't gone round to machine uploading yet. So it's all linked.

Ummm... I don't see how this is related to the universe, mathematics and
free will above. But you are claiming that all knowledge is linked to
our bodies (brains) And this is not new either... haven't people been
talking about immorality for mellania?

> >Depends what you mean by everything... do you mean all knowledge? Yes
> >(I could look it up, but arn't there three? Each must be held to be
> >true:
> >1) A is A,
> >2) A or NotA, (either A is true or A is not true)
> >3) ummm... guess I've forgotten.
> >
> >Anyway, it is #2 that level 3 transends.
> I thought there were 7 in Mathematics (current maths ?)
> Anybody can confirm/infirm this ?

I wasn't talking about the math (although I thought there were only
five?) Having now looked it up, I was talking about deductive agruments.
1) law of non-contradiction NOT(p and NOTp)
no proposition can be both true and false
2) law of excluded middle (p or NOTp)
everything is either A or non-A
or every proposition is either true or false
3) Law of identity (if p then p)
if any prop. is true it is true

I see now why I forgot one... both 1 and 2 are elements of the same
thing... the identity just has to go both ways. it is 1 and 2 that
level 3 transends

> >Ummm... I'll probably have something to say about your view in another
> >week when I finish "The way of Zen" by Allen Watts... till then, you can
> >go read my "Ripples on the pond of Life" message.
> Extremely interesting stuff to which I replied as well.



I live with my impotence of ability because I must.