Re: virus: Zen

Dave Pape (
Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:23:57 +0100 (BST)

At 23:36 01/06/96 -0500, Eric Boyd wrote:

[Stuff about logic and true/false dichotomy in relation to lateral
inhibition in brains clipped mercilessly]

>... I realized that this is really just "Mind or Matter?" in
>disguise. And that question is centuries old! For this specific case, I
>can actually see a way in which it could be decided... just look at
>other cultures. Are their forms of reason (or whatever the equivalent
>is) inherently dualistic? If so we have evidence (although not proof)
>of "matter", if not then "mind" is definatly it.

Okay... I reckon you'd mainly get people shouting at each other in streets
and offices, dividing into two "sides" (maybe you get polarisation effects,
a dichotomous system self-organising)... with the only people NOT taking
sides being people who subscribe to Zen and Zenlike religions.

>Yes! Mind if I join you?

Okay, take a seat. -Oh but watch out for the staining on the left arm...

>> I think it's this "selection for self-preservation" thing which may have
>> kicked off the illusion in organisms that they are different to, or separate
>> from, "the world".
>Yes... Like we've said, in order to make /use/ (ie use the world for
>"your" ends) this duality must be maintained.

Because there has to be a YOU! :)

>> ...the quote (Consciousness Explained, p174 in my edition) goes
>> "As soon as something gets into the business of self-preservation,
>> boundaries become important, for if you are setting out to preserve
>> yourself, you don't want to squander effort trying to preserve the whole
>> world: you draw the line."

>Right on the money! Now I want to read that book more than ever.

Do! Do do od! (Jesus, I actually misspelt "do"!) Because the payoff of the
argument is him claiming, kind of, that consciousness arises for a similar
reason. Hooray.

>> I've come to the conclusion that I AM actually just a fleeting pattern in
>> some part of the universe, but even while I think that, I act as if I'm
>> separate.
>Gene's over meme's, eh?

Weeeellllll... In that I'm acting as though I'm separate, I suppose the
"me-as-separate" meme must be defeating the "me-as-reorganised-part-of"
meme... so I guess I'd argue for this being a case of genetic biasing of

>> Right: I don't agree that we MUST use r & c to make use of the world, but
>> most of us DO, most of the TIME, because we've evolved to have this illusion
>> that we're separate from the rest of the universe.
>I would contend that this illusion of seperation is now causing much
>more damage than it is confering in advantages. Who would pollute if
>they recgonized that the Earth is really a part of them? I sense
>something comming together here in my meme sphere again... desire...
>another big post comming up!

I believe we're too far over in the True/False, Wright/Rong camp, and that
we could get closer to optimum by accepting a few blurred edges. I was on a
train a few years ago opposite the most beautiful girl in the world. She
coughed, and against the sunlight coming into the carriage through the
window I could see droplets of saliva, which presumably diffused in the air,
and some of which I breathed in. Which is as close as I got to her. Having
her body-products absorbed into my bloodstream. Put that way, it sounds like
I got a result.

[I now push things a bit too far, and must be clipped]

>good God my head is going to explode! Gotta go write... an answer to
>this is there too!

Glad to have blown up your lobes.

>> Make any sense?
>lots, yes, thanks

Top one! Bangin'! :)

Dave Pape
I am ready.

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