Anyway, though I still have a certain antipathy to your
style, the anti-Brett filter is now junked.
Robin
I chose the word predictable instead of repeating because I do not see
*behavior* repeating. I'm using "behavior" mostly from a psychological or
sociological perspective (but I did consider partical behavior when I coined
the definition). From a psychological perspective, behavior is predictable
*statistically*, which is to say that a form of the behavior can be expected
from a group over a period of time according to variations from chance but
the re-occurance of the particular behavior cannot be determined
(psychologists do not expect the specific behavior to *repeat*). Also, from
a metaphysical perspective, all things change; so a behavior cannot repeat,
as the time frame changes and thereby the behavior changes. Using "meme"
and "behavior" this way, I am making the distinction that the meme (pattern)
CAN repeat but the behavior CANNOT (am thus defining "pattern" similar to
the way "pattern" was differentiated from information stream in the original
definition...the stream--behavior--changes, the pattern--meme--does not).
I am curious why you would assume that behavior repeats? How are you
defining behavior, how are you limiting repetition, to what end does this
distinction speak?
And again I use the terminology "more complex expressions of itself" in
reference to "meme" to distinguish "meme" from expressions of the meme. The
meme does not become more complex...the *expression* changes. Further, the
expressions are not a reproduction of the meme but are a replication--not an
exact copy but a more complex expression.
So the distinctions I am making are that there is the "meme", which is the
most simple form of a behavior *pattern* (and adding "pattern" might make
this distinction more clear, but doesn't seem to apply to the partical level
as well--plus, "pattern" WOULD be redundent, and I am assuming that a
behavior is NOT a pattern but reduces to a pattern...this distinction due to
the uncertainty of studying behavior as an objective manifestation--a
position-- AND as an action at the same time without positing a "hidden
variable" to account for the pattern of position-and-motion ); there is the
more complex expression of the meme--"complexity" as a cojunct to the meme
but not a part of the meme proper which is simplicity itself; and there is
"behavior", which both repeats the pattern AND becomes more complex.
I think you would say: A behavior is the most simple expression of a meme
if and only if the meme can be compressed and uncompressed without changing
the behavior; in this way, the meme represents more and more complex forms
of a repeating behavior and thus reproduces the behavior on a more complex
level.
The distinctions of this definition would be that the basic component is
"behavior", that behavior repeats but doesn't become complex, that the meme
becomes complex but doesn't repeat...and the summation, the meme would be
the most *complex* form of a behavior.
The problems I see with this definition are: The implied definition
of"behavior" is that it is static--while I take behavior to mean change,
inherently (as in "partical behavior", although the partical and the
behavior may not be discernable at some level and is thus a quantum, the
definitional differences between the word "partical" and the word "behavior"
suggests that--were we able to seperate the two--"partical" would be static
and "behavior" would be changable.) A meme expressed by your definition
could not be discernable but only implied from behavior as "meme" would
constantly be changing and we could not measure both the meme and the change
at the same time.
Brett
At 11:58 AM 10/13/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> From: Brett Lane Robertson[SMTP:unameit@tctc.com]
>>
>I did have a filter set up so I didn't have to see anything
>from you, Brett, but I was browsing my deleted items
>folder and came across this:
>
>> At 11:32 AM 10/12/97 +0100, you wrote:
>> >> From: Nathaniel Hall[SMTP:natehall@worldnet.att.net]
>>
>> >> I think at this point a definition of a pattern would be useful.
>> Any
>> >> takers?
>>
>> >Yuz
>>
>> >An information stream contains a pattern if and only if
>> >it can be compressed and reexpanded without loss,
>> >otherwise it is random. (See Dennett's "Real Patterns"
>> >in the Journal of Philosophy 1991, though he gets it
>> >from someone else, whose details I don't recall right
>> >now, but can get if required.)
>>
>> If a meme is a pattern, and behavior is a stream of information; then,
>> "Behavior refers to a meme if and only if the behavior can be
>> simplified and
>> complexified without loss of information; in this way, the meme
>> represents
>> the most simple form of a predictable behavior and thus replicates
>> itself
>> through more complex expressions of itself."
>>
>Though I don't like the way you express it, I think you have
>a valuable point here. Memes are certainly patterns within
>behavioural streams of information. And I like "the most
>simple form of a predictable behaviour", though I think
>"repeating" might be just slightly better than "predictable".
>I also think "through more complex expressions of itself"
>is redundant -- all expressions of a meme will be more
>complex than the meme itself.
>
>Anyway, though I still have a certain antipathy to your
>style, the anti-Brett filter is now junked.
>
>Robin
>>
>>
>>
>
Returning,
rBERTS%n
Rabble Sonnet Retort
The computing field is always in need of new cliches.
Alan Perlis